Well,
welcome back to another podcast of Struggling Well, and it's a joy to be able to do this today. A little different. our good friend, Tim Briggs, who I've known, we've known for over 10 years and is the producer of this show, is now going to sit behind the microphone because we're going to talk with him. when Tandem Spirituality began back in the end of 2019, Suzi and I have a heart still do for pastors and their families. Now, the ministry has opened up to, mentoring and coaching other folks who are Christian leaders, but it's still at the part of it all are our pastors and their families. And Tim is a young man who is now pastoring, planted a church. we'll talk a little bit about this just a couple weeks before COVID broke out. and his church, Steadfast Church, is just a great gospel ministry here in Charlotte, but Tim served on staff with me for a number of years prior to that. So, we've got a history with each other. And Tim, talk to me a little bit about what brought you to want to join a church staff? Good question. First off, thanks for calling me a young man.
You are young compared to me.
I'll take it. I'll take it. what brought me to church staff and church ministry?
Yeah.
you know, I came to Christ when I was 18. And, you know, at first ministry did not seem like a vocation that would be open to me because I didn't know anything about Jesus. I didn't know anything about the scriptures.
it scared me to death to think that I might be up on a stage telling people about the Bible. but then over time, you know, God did some work on my heart and I got involved in ministry as a volunteer and eventually just came to love it. after college, I did try I worked at a YMCA for a while. I had a recreation degree, but I realized my heart was really in ministry. I loved being a part of the process of seeing transformation in people's lives. and then came to have a conviction that the local church is the hope of the world. I mean Jesus is the hope but he established the church as his mechanism his institution to further the gospel and so as I had a passion to see people be transformed by the gospel and I had this conviction of the local church I started going to seminary part-time and wanted to pursue local church ministry.
Wow. Yeah. And that's a great journey and when we I've listened to your story in more depth and I just think it's a picture of the grace of God lived out in your life. I think it's interesting because people have said to me why did do we title this thing struggling well and you've known me that was one of the values of a church that I pastored for a number of years. I just find it interesting that in the gospels that the last thing that Jesus says to his disciples or certainly one of the last things just before he prays his high priestly prayer in John 17 is he says this to the guys I've said these things to you that in me you may have peace in the world you will have tribulation but take heart I've overcome the world it's not if you are you will so struggle is part of life and we're not exempt just because we're Christ followers what have been the things that maybe surprised you and Jenny and the family, the struggles as a pastor that maybe you didn't think, you know, maybe you thought, I'll be a pastor of a local church, everybody will love me. That's certainly what I thought when I got started and it'll be a wonderful experience and it proved to be anything but that. what are some of the things that kind of maybe have caught you by surprise as you struggle with things?
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I'll first say that. I think some of the appeal to ministry for me was it is a place of affirmation. And so part of my story is that I feel like I'm still a little kid just longing for affirmation in my life.
And you know at the time that I began to be interested in ministry, I don't think I knew this, but I think ministry appealed to me because there's a lot of attabo in ministry. Yeah.
You know, you do something well, people are just so thankful and they're they express that to you. And so there's a sinful part of me, a dark part of me that I think pursued ministry as a as an outlet for affirmation to seek that. But you know, the flip side's true as well as you well know. Yes, it is a place for att of complaints. And I think pastoring now as a solo pastor, as a lead pastor, you know, I experience both of those, the heights and the lows of that. And you know, God's doing a good work through all of my insecurity in that. But yes, there are a number of things that are very hard about the vocation of pastoring, the expectations people have, all the decisions that you're required to make, shephering and discipling people, and maybe you're not doing it at the level they want or even the level that you want to do. And so there's a lot of place there. for conflict and struggle. And it's hard as a pastor because you want to be a shepherd. You want to be among the people. You want to smell like sheep. That is the role of a pastor. you want to be honest. You want to be vulnerable. You want to struggle well, as you would say. and show that you're a real person who goes through life just like they do. On the flip side, it is hard sometimes to know what's appropriate to share and what's appropriate not to share. In fact, I think I remember calling you maybe a year or so ago and saying, "How do you do this? How do you how do you not stand up on a stage and interact, you know, throughout the week with your congregation and not seem like a phony? How do you how do you be honest when people say, "Hey, how are you doing?" You don't want to just say, "Hey, I'm doing great. Great. Everything's wonderful." How do you be honest if you are struggling? But then how Do you use discretion to maybe not share things you shouldn't share? And there's an art to that I think I'm still navigating. it's probably an art that you've probably mastered over the past 40 plus years or you definitely know more than I do. Let's put it that way.
Yeah. I it is it's more art in heart than it is strict guidelines. you end up with anytime you choose to be vulnerable and to share the things that you struggle with it can be used against you and it can be weaponized by elder boards by people in your congregation but as you said I think as a shepherd there's got to be the willingness to do that I one of my favorite places in scripture is in 2 Corinthians I think it's Paul's most self-revealing of what he was going through and He says in the first chapter to the people of Corinth, we don't want you to be unaware, brothers, of the afflictions we experienced in Asia. So he wants them to be aware of what's going on in his life. but we also know that there are situations for him where people used it against him. So how you balance that is not something that you have a book to turn to figure it out. It's just something I think you have to said, like you said, it's art. It's your heart. It's what the spirit leads you to do. and to say and you recognize that it still could come back to bite you.
So, let me ask you this question because I know this is a real life example for both of us. people choose to leave our churches. You know, we're in Charlotte, North Carolina. a lot of churches, a lot of Bible teaching churches. So, there's options out there. and people leave and they say it's not personal. How do you how do you handle that? Because it sure feels personal to you and me, doesn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I would say I want in my heart to be sympathetic to that comment because I if I put myself in their shoes, I could see how they think that is not personal. that life can be segmented and siloed where work and personal life and friends and community don't necessarily overlap. But for those in ministry, for pastors, pastors wives, this is the beautiful but really difficult thing is that all of those things are smooshed together.
You know, your personal life, your work, your friendship, your community, they're all linked together, interdependent.
So if someone's at your church and they're a friend and they leave and they say, say, "Hey, it's not personal.", that might be an easy distinction for them to make. It's a much harder one for a pastor or a pastor's wife or again anyone in ministry. That's a harder one to make because it's harder just to silo that off. and so yeah, you have to do a lot of soul work with that. And again, that's another thing that it's an art that I'm learning, you know, as well of you know we've never guilted anyone when they've left you know we don't want to have hard feelings but when people say hey I want to I want to have a relationship with you still I do want that at some level but it will be a delicate balance of we got to talk through that you know we need to we need to be honest about some things and sometimes people say they want that but they don't really want that sometimes when they leave they offer that as kind of like a way to lessen the blow, but they really don't actually want your friendship. Sometimes they do. but it is an extremely difficult thing to navigate as a pastor. And then again, for a pastor's wife, you know, spouses always take these things worse because they hear things second, third hand, and they don't get to sit in those conversations always and hear and say all the things they want to say. So, it's a difficult thing.
Yeah. You raised the spouse and you know we know Jenny and what have been the hardest things for her to have to navigate and work through would you say ask as she sits and watches you as a pastor and she hears even the things that you don't necessarily tell her she knows that there's something going on what's hardest for her in navigating that
yeah I think it is what I hinted at there a moment ago of She hears everything secondhand.
And I've learned to try to be careful in how I will narrate a story to her, knowing that her instant reaction is going to be defensive. Rightfully so, and be beautifully so as a spouse.
You would hope so.
Yeah. You know, she's for me. She wants me to succeed. but yeah, there is a way in which I could describe something that would immediately put her defenses, you know, on high alert. And then there's a way that I could describe something that may kind of help her process something difficult in a more calm sort of way, but it is difficult. and again, I think we're still learning that too. even also, you know, what level of detail I will tell her. her on things to protect her to allow her to maybe not be tainted in how she sees people. but that is a real thing and I think you know for any pastors listening that's a good exercise for you just to think about how what how do you narrate the conflicts at church? How do you narrate the difficult things and how does that impact your wife? And just pay careful attention to that and take notes of perhaps, you know, ways that you could help love, serve, shepherd your wife even as you're going through something very difficult at the same time.
Yeah. And we know that you have three boys and they're getting to the place. Your oldest is in middle school and then you have two in elementary school. that wraps in another whole area that you're just now getting into probably with how you how do you narrate what's going on in the church to your kids? because I've said this often, everybody's job is hard.
There's nobody out there working doesn't have a hard job. I believe the uniqueness of local church ministry for the pastor and his family is every aspect of your life gets engulfed into what you do. So the family gets dragged in to the places where a guy works for one of the banks here in Charlotte. His wife, his kids aren't necessarily sitting next to a disgruntled congregant. or somebody that's not happy with him at work, whereas our families might be sitting next to somebody who just isn't real happy with the way things are going to church. So, how you narrate is a great way for us to kind of wrap up this week and we'll talk more next week about some other aspects of what it's like to struggle well as a pastor of a local church.