Well, welcome back to another podcast of Struggling Well, and Suzi and I are delighted to be with you again this morning and we brought a guest along too. You know, when Tandem spirituality began, our heart is for Christian leaders and their families for their spiritual and mental well-being and in and even tighter than spiritual Christian leaders is that role of pastor and their family.
Yeah.
And that's really where our heart has been for the last four or five years. and so we have a guest this morning who happens to be a friend who happens to be a church planter, which is another unique added thing, and that's Tim Briggs. So, Tim, we welcome you this morning. We're glad to have you join us.
I'm glad to be here. Glad to be among greatness.
Oh, yeah. Boom. Yeah.
Suzi, of course.
Of course you are. Of course you are. so one of the things that I think is it's probably true for all believers, but I think there's a unique pressure for pastors. And you're in the role of a church planter. So, you're a solo pastor. There's no otherbody. There's nobody else on staff with you. There are people certainly around you that support you. But the whole question of boundaries in ministry in particular boundaries that you have to protect your marriage to protect your ministry. I mean it's well documented Christian leaders who've recently been exposed in terms of things that they've done, things that they've said, situations they've been in that they've compromised themselves. And so talk a little bit to us about your role as a church planter. husband, what? father, and just the whole when you hear the word boundaries, what comes to your mind?
Yeah. Well, just for some context, Jenny and I have been married for almost 19 years. And so, that's exciting.
And, yeah, as a pastor or just a believer, you know, I was driving over here today thinking about all of this, and I think I was thinking about four principles when it comes to boundaries, particularly as it relates to the opposite sex. And I think the first one I was thinking about is a biblical one. Ephesians 5. There's a lot of mystery in that passage, of course.
but it talks about how a husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church. And I think it's a great conversation for a couple to have, whether you've been married for 15 years or you're newly wed, of how can we honor each other and love each other in how we relate to the opposite sex. What would give you, my bride, confidence as I interact with a member of the opposite sex? And so that's a great conversation to have, one that Jenny and I have had together. I think the second biblical principle would be we're fellow imagebearers. if we're believers, we are brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. And so, how can I interact with the opposite sex in a way in which honors their image bearing
in a way that honors their sisterhood and the family of God? that's a worthy conversation to have as well. the third and fourth principles are related. you know, we've been married for 19 years. We've seen a number of marriages fall apart. you guys have seen that and you're what? 40 plus years of marriage.
48
48 years of marriage.
And almost all of them it seems to have the same sort of pattern. There's some sort of emotional attachment that begins and it grows and it grows until a place where it's inappropriate. And I think we have to guard our hearts and know our hearts. So I remember some time ago I had a friend call me and he said, "Hey, I just I need to tell someone this at work. there's this woman who's attractive. I find myself wanting to be around her. in fact, changing my schedule so that I can be around her more. I feel like I want to impress her. I feel nervous around her. I don't know that this is good or right, but I just feel compelled to share this.
And I said, "Well, hey, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for ing me with that.
why do you think that is? And as we talked about it, I mean, he had he had a crush. He had a crush on this girl. He was infatuated with her. And I just said, "Hey, you know, I think the loving thing to do for your wife and for this girl would be to take a step back
and don't be cruel to her. Don't be mean. Don't be nasty. Be professional. But you don't have to change your schedule to be around her. You don't need to impress her. Take a step back.
So, he had enough wisdom and discernment to understand his own heart to say something is start. There's a kernel of something starting here
that could be really dangerous. I should tell somebody.
So, we have to have enough awareness in our own heart. But then the last thing I'll say and then I'll stop talking and let the experts
Oh, that's us.
the last thing I'll say is, and this is probably the hardest one, is you have to have enough a awareness and discernment to maybe see what's happening in someone else's heart.
Yeah.
So theoretically, you could act in a way toward a member of the opposite sex in which is honoring and loving to your spouse. You could treat them as a brother or sister in Christ. You could not have any sort of emotional attachment or crush in your own heart, but the other person could perceive your actions in a different way.
Yeah.
They could perceive your friendliness in a way that is more more than friendship or more than community. It may matter to them more. They may feel stirred in a way that's not good or healthy. And if you sense that, and again, it's hard to see someone else's heart, but if you sense that, it may be good to take a step back
out of love for them and again out of love for your spouse. And so, I think when it comes to boundaries, you think about all four of those things. How can I honor my spouse? how can I treat someone as a fellow image bearer, brother, sister in Christ? How can I know my own heart, guard my own heart? How can I guard someone else's heart? It's a messy journey, but I think if you're thinking about those things, praying about those things, you can probably come up with an appropriate set of boundaries that's loving and kind and honoring to everybody who's around you.
And I think along with all of that, Tim, because that is golden information is that if I'm not in fellowship or if I'm not spending time with the Lord and I'm not allowing his spirit to teach me and convict me and move me in whatever situation I'm in, that I'm going to miss all that because I'm going to be working out of my flesh rather than working out of the spirit. And the thing about the flesh is, man, I can try to drown my flesh a hundred times, but that sucker keeps gasping for air all the time. And so it's really I think to have some principles in your mind as you move in the world is really important because otherwise you're kind of like you're in the water and you're flailing around trying to, you know, get to shore, but you have nothing of any substance around you to hang on to. And I think having some principles in your mind and in your heart that you've determined the These are some litmus tests that I can put into effect. Here's a problem though that's occurring now. I think now this is just as I observe the world is there are no boundaries out there.
There's no boundaries. And so because of that has seeped into the church and it's seeped into ministry in big time big ways. And so when there is when we are in just kind of daily with all this lack of boundaries in the world and I say it's unprecedented, but it's not. It was in Rome. It's been in the church forever, in the world forever. But that adds another pressure to be in our world, but as Paul says, not of the world. Well, how do we do that then in our relationships with one another, men and women? How do we how do we do what you said, be friends and respectful and all those things, but also be careful with one another's heart. I think that's huge.
Yeah. And I think that there's the sense that here's where I think there's some uniquenesses for pastors. cuz many times I mean you have two roles primarily. you open God's word, you preach, but then you also pastor people. And so you have folks who come to you and say, "Hey, can I spend an hour with you? Can I tell you about what's going on in my life?" And so you think of that particularly with women who do that. you can look really good for an hour in a conversation with them. and when they get to the place where they're going, "Well, you listen to me. My husband doesn't listen to me like you do. I wish he listened to me like you do." Those are some of the things where you realize that your fourth point, there's an attachment that maybe is an unhealthy one that's growing. and you've got to pay attention to that. you can be doing what you think is your pastoral role filling that and yet it's coming across in a way that I think can be dangerous if you're not careful with it. And so one of the things you said that I really feel doesn't take place with regularity is you've got to be intentional and be attuned to what's going on. Which means your mind has to be focused in ways that reflects all the things that we've talked about here. And truth of the matter is there are some days you don't necessarily bring that defense mechanism up. And so it just becomes, I think, a an intentionality on our parts to keep clear boundaries, not because we don't care about people, but because we do care about people.
Yeah. And I think you make a great point there. As a pastor, you're carrying spiritual authority
and you're mixing it with hopefully a genuine love and care for people,
right? And so you can be operating in a dignifying way but it can be received as something different than that. and so yeah you have to be very you have to tread very carefully into those waters particularly with the opposite sex because those things can be interpreted in a different way than in which they were meant.
Yeah. And there are you know I think about the difference sometimes with counselors and again they face the same issues but counselors have some rigid guidelines that they have to live by in order to maintain their status as a licensed counselor, for example. there's not that same set of rigid things that we have as pastors. and so the need to be attuned to what's going on in my heart and what's going in the heart of the people that I'm with are is a really important thing
I think to the difference between being in ministry and someone who count councils for a living is that they meet with somebody for an hour and that hour is done. Most often they do not also worship and socialize with them.
Being at Church at Charlotte, as we all were for so many years, we're talking with people in intimate ways about things and then we're also sitting next to them in church. We're going to different functions. We're moving in the same circle. and that makes the lines kind of funky and blurred. And I know that there are wonderful counselors that are able to do that and still have boundaries and I appreciate their ministry. But I think it's Tim the one that you said that really has struck me is about being aware. I think for men and women in ministry, you know, I'm I've been a pastor's wife and there have been many times when I've spokeen with wives mostly, but every now and then I'll end up talking to a husband and if I am not aware of myself and where my heart is, what's going on in my mind, then I can just as easily as anybody else step over a line. And the crazy thing is what happens then is so if you're in a bad place and you're in a conversation with somebody who's also in a bad place, that is really tricky because you're both looking for relief and so you can end up going, "Well, well, this is kind of fun. This is kind of interesting.", it's just hard, guys. I'm just telling you, it's hard. No matter pastor, pastor's wife, pastor's kids, it's hard.
Yeah. And so, if I just put a kind of a cap on this, and again, like all of our podcasts, we don't think that we've exhausted a subject, but I think to be aware, to be self-aware of what's going on inside your soul, and to be aware of what's going on inside the soul as much as you can of another person leaves us in a better place to end up walking away in a positive way from those interactions and not crossing the lines. Thanks for being with us. We hope this has been encouraging and helpful to you. Have a great day. Thanks for joining us. To learn more about the Struggling Well podcast, visit tandemspirituality. com.